Dick Smith vs Tim Flannery, and the solar revolution

It turns out that Australians may not as dumb as Dick Smith would have us believe, at least as far as electricity choices are made. The self-made entrepreneur, aviator and now aspiring energy expert made much in his “Ten Bucks a Litre” documentary last week about the inadequacy of renewables – they are expensive, and intermittent, and they can’t do the job.

And in a blithe dismissal of the ability of households to act smarter, and substitute energy-hogging appliances with more efficient ones, he said there would never be enough solar panels on a household to here will never be enough panels to meet their requirement.

But Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery has another viewpoint: He says Australians are rushing to embrace solar for a simple reason – it is saving them money, because it is cheaper to generate electricity on the rooftop of their home than to source it through the massive grid. And because it also has the happy outcome of forcing dirty electricity generation out of the market.

The Climate Commission today releases a detailed 45-page report on the future of solar – a study that is likely to get buried under the frenzy of media attention on the first day of the election campaign. And that’s a pity, says Flannery, because the “solar revolution” has gone virtually un-noticed by the mainstream media, but its impact is already being felt within the electricity industry.

Flannery says the arrival of cost-competitive solar is one of the biggest  things that has happened in the fight to address climate change and limit greenhouse gas emissions. “Solar is clearly is good for the battle on climate change,” Flannery told RenewEconomy in an interview. “It is replacing old, polluting infrastructure with new, clean infrastructure. For me, solar is the big story. It is way above everything else (that has been achieved).

Flannery dismisses the ideas promoted by the likes of Dick Smith – who with the aid of images from dancing “greenies” at a Bellingen festival – likes to promote the idea that renewables are expensive and intermittent, and therefore of not much practical use. Flannery says such ideas are  “well outdated”. From the perspective of individual consumer, he notes, rooftop solar is already cost competitive with the grid.

Flannery says solar will challenge utilities, and the centralized generation model of the electricity sector, and will have the same impact as the internet has had on the media, where the viability of printed newspapers is threatened by the popularity of online information.

“This is coming, like it or not,” Flannery says. “And nothing short of banning solar PV will prevent it. We can have a stable grid with a lot of solar PV. We may have to look at what the future is for major utilities, and this is a significant issue because it looks at how we run a new grid. But it is not insurmountable.”

Flannery’s comments echo the conclusions of a range of international investment banks, independent analysts, as well as the biggest utilities and generators in the US and Europe, who all conclude that solar will become a “no-brainer” for consumers (be they homes or businesses).

Smith’s message was that renewables were expensive and intermittent, and therefore couldn’t do the job. It’s a conclusion typical of those who advocate, as Smith does, that the only solution is nuclear, and who cannot see beyond the current centralised model of generation. It’s at odds with most modern thinking, even including the conclusions of the 100% renewables scenario completed by the Australian Energy Market Operator.

But technology has moved on, and so have costs. The Climate Commission report concludes that solar PV is already providing the most affordable form of electricity production for retail consumers – a conclusion already arrived at by international investment banks, independent analysts and the biggest utilities and generators in the US and Europe, who all conclude that solar will become a “no-brainer” for consumers (be they homes or businesses).

Instead of a market dominated by a few large producers or electricity providers, Flannery says there are now countless numbers of “pro-sumers”, householders and businesses that produce their own electricity. That changes the financial model for existing utilities, he says, because it lowers demand at peak times when they are used to making most of their money.

“The economic model that we run the power industry doesn’t work any more,” he says. And the industry faces an even bigger challenge with the arrival of batteries, which he suspects will be competitive within a few years.

“This is an evolutionary thing – and the one thing that we can do is to make sure that we have a stable electricity supply. We will need the right elements in place to make sure that (those elements) are delivered in time – and we can look to Germany for that.” One of the key issues is the cost of the grid, and how it impacts those who do not have access to solar.

The Climate Commission report has a couple of interesting graphics which we thought we would highlight. The first is this, looking at the amount invest by each country in 2012 in solar, and the country’s relative solar resources. It should be pointed out that the $3.8 billion spent in Australia came almost exclusively from households. Much of the investment in other countries would have come from commercial investments in larger scale installations. The table at the end highlights the extent of solar hot water usage, which still dominates solar PV by a large factor.

 Solar climate comm world

The second graph is a bit of fun – and highlights some of the individual records for each state. Whatever happened to Tasmania?

solar climate comm oz

 

Comments

49 responses to “Dick Smith vs Tim Flannery, and the solar revolution”

  1. DogzOwn Avatar
    DogzOwn

    Why didn’t Dick Smith ask for a price to relocate Dungeoness nuke to Australia? What kind of entrepreneur is he supposed to be? Pity about his mantra that renewables won’t work because of intermittency and that he didn’t condescend to ask the BZE guys. Did he really spend 12 months learning so little?

  2. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    I watched the 10 bucks a litre documentary as well and I thought how Dick Smith looked at the most obvious weakness of renewables, intermittency was fair and in a balanced manner. Now no one would suggest that renewable energy production is not intermittent, would they?
    But Dick did spend more than some time on the solutions to intermittency like the rock salts and solar thermal and the batteries in cars and potential for using millions of batteries for grid usage to solve these problems. Yes Dick looked at Nuclear, and to my mind he didn’t even explore this technologies major weakness and that is the 1000’s of years of highly radioactive waste problem. I do not support Nuclear but in no way did I think Dick was pro nuclear at the expense of renewables in the documentary.
    Nuclear will never get off the ground since the expense of the plants are just going to continue to rise and vs renewables why would any sane society lumber themselves with millions of tons of toxic waste when there is cost effective alternatives??
    But one thing that might bring Nuclear to the fore is the continue growth in the economies of the world. Dick only gave one line to this in the documentary and no one wants to deal with this elephant in the room…. Until this issue is brought to the fore and some serious discussions begin on the biophysical limits known as planetary boundaries and the growing costs of the exiting systems pushing through the ones we know and the risks of the ones we can not quantify at the moment means this discussion is incomplete. For the question really is, do we want renewables to power consumerism?

    1. Albert Sjoberg Avatar
      Albert Sjoberg

      I love Solar and welcome more solar on roof tops across the country. Those able to capitalise on the initial gross feed in rates are doing very well. Folks installing in the last 18 months are forced to settle for feed in tariffs in the 6c to 8c mark. Far less lucrative, but still a worthwhile addition to a home with no shading issues.

      Solar Thermal with molten salt is definitely an option, but needs a large piece of land. Where the large pieces of land are available the network will need to be built or upgraded to supply the power to where it will be needed. The painful fact is that renewables can never be a 100% solution. There will always be a need for stations across the country to provide power when renewables fall short.

      The coal stations will need to be replaced in the coming years and simply replacing them with more coal or gas fired generations is an ecological disaster.

      The aim must be to keep the coal and oil in the ground and move away from coal entirely. At the same time we need to continue to grow as a country and the available energy must increase.

      Nuclear must come back onto the table. Not in the form of light water reactors but in the form of Fast Breeder reactors. The advantages are longer life and better use of fuel. They can make use of spent fuel from the light water reactors that goes a long way to addressing the waste issue that is used to denigrate nuclear power. The spent fuel product from the reactor has a half life measured in decades rather than millennia. The geological stability of Australia makes it a good candidate for nuclear.

      The argument presented earlier that Nuclear power must go hand in hand with nuclear weapons is simply false. Yes it could, but similarly my steak knife could be used in a violent crime, but in many houses across Australia steak knives pose no threat to anyone.

      The most important aspect is we need to act now. An choosing to act with the nuclear option tied behind our back is irresponsible.

      1. Steven Avatar
        Steven

        “The argument presented earlier that Nuclear power must go hand in hand with nuclear weapons is simply false.”
        No it’s not. Where do you think the war machine gets its tritium and depleted uranium from? Civilian nuclear power plants, that’s where. Nuclear energy is the congenital malformation of the arms race.
        While the planet heats, nuclear proponents boast of the fast breeder reactor which remains commercially non-existent. Ziggy Switkowski said Australia could have 50 reactors by 2050. Hee. More nuclear fish stories. Is there an antidote for delusion?

        1. Albert Sjoberg Avatar
          Albert Sjoberg

          Steven, you have confused possibility with reality.
          Yes, the nuclear power station is capable of creating materials that can be used in weapons. That does not imply that they have to be used for weapons.
          That same reactor can create products and isotopes for use in medical treatments, like radiation therapy for cancer patients.

          “…remains commercially non-existent” how much remains non-exisitant because we are too afraid to even venture down that path?

          The nuclear aircraft carrier USS Nimitz commissioned in 1975 has been powered by 2 FBRs for the last 30 years. India is bringing an FBR online and the UK has FBR plants under construction.

          Here in Australia we have a strong anti-nuclear lobby. This has severely hampered progress and research. This is the same thinking that had Galileo Galilei suspected of heresy for not holding to the popular belief that the sun revolved around the earth.

          We do not need an antidote to delusion, we need an antidote to ignorance.

          1. Steven Avatar
            Steven

            “…….the UK has FBR plants under construction.”
            Tsk tsk Albert. You’re fibbing. Is there “an antidote for ignorance” and nuclear spinners?

          2. Albert Sjoberg Avatar
            Albert Sjoberg

            Good catch Steven, I was working off old data. I have edited my post.

          3. JonathanMaddox Avatar
            JonathanMaddox

            Albert, you might like to reconsider your claim about the US Navy operating breeder reactors at sea, too.

            The USS Nimitz is powered by pressurised-water reactors using enriched uranium dioxide ceramic fuel, just like every other naval nuclear reactor ever built and most of the world’s nuclear power stations as well.

            Only about twenty breeder reactors have ever been operated in the world altogether, and no two were alike; only five or six are still in operation today. At least one was built, then cancelled before it ever operated.

            France, Germany, the UK and the USA have *all* abandoned their breeder reactor programs, and it would seem Japan’s no longer has public support (though its Jojo and Monju reactors are still in operation).

            This leaves only China, India and Russia with active breeder reactor programs. China’s and India’s working breeder reactors are both very much on the experimental scale and Russia’s only working one is 33 years old.

  3. tsport100 Avatar
    tsport100

    I didn’t see the self funded Dick Smith propaganda film but if his argument is that renewables are expensive, how exactly does he argue that nuclear ISN’T as or even more expensive?

  4. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Dick’s message was necessary in its lack of detail. Most people and this really can not be argued, are completely clueless about the systems that make theirs lives possible. One wonders why the greens haven’t figured this out yet since it would make their arguments a whole lot easier to sell if the population of Australia actually understood the context of why we have to move to renewables. In fact it is this very space in which the most aggressive and well financed propaganda is taking place so to persuade the population that there really is no problem, just keep about your business and leave it to the experts. Why is it so difficult to understand that the % of population who understand the severity of the situation humanity is facing is very small but growing and the vast majority of people don’t have the time inclination or interest to spend the many hours investigating and reading to build the global context of humanity position vs the ecology? Maybe the change agents are being a wee bit naïve to think that if we make a rational argument based on the facts as best that can be determined around an enormously complex issue like climate change and changing to renewables would have the capacity to move the majority of people who have elements within that count on angles to bring them good luck, and will push over and step on another in a store discount sale….especially when the much louder voice in their ear is ” keep going, there is nothing wrong here, ignore the greenies they are weirdos but be scared to death of boat people and losing your job, and then losing your ability to educate your kids, and hate your government for it is just useless waster and you need a big strong father figure to look after you”

    1. Motorshack Avatar
      Motorshack

      It might help your case to use shorter sentences.

      Dick Smith and others like him at least know how break things down into nice sound bites.

  5. Anne-Maree Huxley Avatar
    Anne-Maree Huxley

    If nothing else, at least Dick got the debate flowing again and has stirred the market to come out in force to show it’s got what it takes and can do the job! The technology is already here – it’s the leadership and will power that’s lacking here!

  6. Johny Avatar
    Johny

    Leave dick smith alone you fool. I am convinced you have been paid by some stupid renewable energy company to make all these biased articles. EVERY one of you articles are for solar and wind, nothing else. Reality is, its IMPOSSIBLE to run our country on windmills and distributed solar panels. All theyre doing is messing up the way things currently are and screwing up everything. Hell for some parts of the year a large solar system cant even supply the daily needs of one home for weeks even months. How do you expcet this piss weak tehcnology to run Australia? bloody joke

    1. Roger Brown Avatar
      Roger Brown

      You are the fool, must be a LNP voter, Alan Jones listener ? I can tell by your bad spelling . My small 3 Kw Solar system has stopped all electricity bills and gives me a small Xmas Bonus .I expect it will pay it self off in 5-6 yrs. My Solar Hot Water system is over 15 yrs old and has paid it self off years ago, rarely do I put the electric booster on (1/2 hr ). I would sell your dirty power station shares if I was you. Messing things up ? you mean reducing the amount of coal burnt ? or the closing down of the dirty brown coal stations ? Reducing the carbon being put into the air we breathe is screwing things up ? Thanks for the laughs.

      1. Johny Avatar
        Johny

        Oh what ever. Yes its stopped your bill assuming you have a high feed in tariff and live up north somewhere. But I get a power bill during winter (Melbourne) despite having a 4Kw system meaning it isn’t 100% sufficient. I am not for coal and KNOW it needs to be replaced, but with something that’s not intermittent and can work 24/7. Solar thermal with storage? large scale solar farms? geothermal? Distributed solar is only making these kind of technologies less viable making it harder for us to get rid of the coal we do have.

        1. Roger Brown Avatar
          Roger Brown

          S.East QLD , .44c + 6 c from Origin. I got a $5.00 credit this winter , but do you have solar heating for water ? Water heating is a big user of power , or get a bigger system?

          1. Johny Avatar
            Johny

            Its a different story in Melbourne. Despite having gas hot water and heating it cannot completely cover our usage. Due to shading the max we can fit is 5Kw. Point being, theres a lot more needed than just rooftop PV to supply our country. This link is the daily generation of a 3.5kw system in Melbourne http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=19086&sid=17098

          2. Diego Matter Avatar
            Diego Matter

            Hi Johny. I looked into your PV-production figures and it does look normal.

            So I’m wondering how many kWh your house is using per day. Since you use gas heating and gas hot water, an efficient household should be around 6kWh per day. I know it from our own efficiency measures. Your PV system should be able to provide ample electricity for that usage. Did you take steps to make your household more efficient? I agree that PV is hardly enough for an inefficient household. That is what the family in Dick’s documentary showed. They use 24kWh a day – an outrageous amount for three people if I dare say.

            And I agree with you that roof solar alone won’t be enough. But efficiency (very important) together with a mix of biogas, geothermal, CSP with molten salt storage, storage (battery and hydro) and wind in a decentralised system will be. But Dick Smiths vision only looks centralised system instead.

          3. Johny Avatar
            Johny

            The average home in vic uses around 20kwh, ours uses 26kwh average. Though a month ago we changed all our downlights to LED so we will see how that helps. A relatives newly built home uses around 16kwh per day (4 people), and their home is supposed to be efficient. And well that’s my point! We need a centralised as well as decentralised system for our future needs. For large CBD’s and factories and shopping centres etc, centralised renewable generation seems like the viable option. And for homes, solar pv will surely be scattered around pretty heavily.

          4. Diego Matter Avatar
            Diego Matter

            Johny, that’s a start. So you use 26kWh a day average.

            When I tell you that you can easily cut that to 10kWh a day with efficiency and some behaviour changes, would you believe me?

            Here is a good and easy start. Check off all items on the list when done:
            http://apps.ergon.com.au/calculators/ElectricitySavingActionPlan.aspx

            I guarantee, you will end up at or below 10kWh/day. Your solar system will shine in a whole new light!

            It’s just a pitty that your solar company didn’t tell you this stuff, because they know that a 3.6kWp solar system is way to small for a usage of 26kWh per day. Every good installer should investigate your usage and crunch the numbers and give you an (exact) estimate. Obviously yours didn’t and now you are disappointed, rightly so I might add. But it’s not the PV-system’s fault.

            Other good efficiency portals are:
            http://www.energyrating.gov.au
            http://www.livinggreener.gov.au
            http://www.csiro.au/Outcomes/Energy/Saving-energy-in-your-home.aspx

            Another thing to mention is:
            You can only manage what you can measure, meaning that you have to measure the usage of every appliance in your house to find energy wasters/standby wasters. Even better is a whole house power meter because that way you will also find hard wired appliances wasting electricity. Some also show solar production figures as a bonus.

            You can buy them here (I’m not affiliated in any way):
            http://steplight.com.au/monitor/wireless-real-time-home-electricity-display

            Good luck and welcome to an energy efficient future!

          5. Johny Avatar
            Johny

            Thanks for that Diego. Well we have a whole house meter and a plug in meter. So far, our tv alone uses 6kwh per day, so I really need to look into changing it to an efficient model (didn’t realise how bad it was!) but ill look into the sites you’ve linked me with, thanks again!

          6. Motorshack Avatar
            Motorshack

            A TV that pulls 6KWH a day? In my world that would be a space heater, literally.

            I heat my entire (small, well-insulated) apartment – in a (Fahrenheit) 7000 degree-day winter – with one electric space heater, and I only use that much energy on the coldest days. Average over the entire winter is about 4 KWH per day.

            And then I suppose you use another 6KWH of air conditioning to keep the room comfortable while you spend all that time glued to the tube. After all, 6KWH of waste heat has to go somewhere.

            I think I finally understand why so many Australians insist that they can’t survive unless they burn megatons of coal. That has genuinely puzzled me, but this looks like the answer: 6KWH for one TV for one day. Wow.

          7. Johny Avatar
            Johny

            Well its a 50 inch plasma that seems to be drawing 500w continuously. It does sound like a lot actually!. I’ve heard they are phasing them out or don’t even sell plasma’s anymore but we’ve had this since 08. Its on around 9 hours a day (no we aren’t glued to the tube, always 1 in 4 of us watching it at some time). PS it actually takes around 5kwh (still a lot), though I had the foxtel box and a lamp plugged into the same power board (oops).

          8. Motorshack Avatar
            Motorshack

            Yeah, that is about what I was expecting to hear: big screen, on quite a bit, and fairly old technology. Plasma is particularly inefficient by modern standards, even if we dispense with jokes about vacuum tubes.

            For comparison, I have no TV as such, but get all my video over the Internet, and display it on a 21″ monitor that is probably much better definition than your old plasma space heater, yet it draws only 14 watts. That’s right. No typo there. Just 14 watts.

            So, even if it is on 18 hours a day, which happens regularly given the amount and variety of use it gets, the total energy consumption is still only .25 KWH, which is to say 24 times less expensive to run than your TV.

            Exclusive of heating and cooling, my total electrical draw comes to just under 2 KWH a day for everything.

            I also do not operate an automobile, so the electricity is my entire energy bill for the year. The average works out to just about one dollar a day at 17 cents per KWH.

            In contrast, most of my neighbors spend on the order of $10K per year on cars, heating fuel, and electricity, and they do that after paying income taxes on the money. There is a lot of variation in that number, of course, but it is the right order of magnitude. So, my energy consumption is 25 or 30 times cheaper than the majority of my neighbors, even though my lifestyle also includes all the modern conveniences. I just do not have any useless or otherwise inefficient junk in my home.

            In general the issue here is not technological, but psychological, in that we get used to doing things a certain way, and may never really consider much cheaper, but equally practical alternatives. It takes a while to develop the knack of questioning such things, but once you do it can become quite automatic, and you will then be surprised how much time, money, and physical resources you have been wasting on completely useless stuff.

            Such as heating a room unnecessarily with an inefficient TV, and then paying to cool it again with AC. Once you look at that situation it is clearly easier and cheaper just to get a better TV in the first place – and maybe to put better insulation in the house, as well.

            Finally, this can also be a very amusing game. Instead of going to the track and betting on horses, I make little bets with myself on how much money I can avoid giving to the robber barons running the local power company. This is not only good, clean fun, but is also far more effective politically than voting for corrupt politicians who will never properly regulate their cronies in business.

            That is to say, I go straight for their bottom line, and when enough of us wise up to the potential of this approach, the One Percent will have a real problem. They need us far more than we need them, and they are just praying that the average citizen is too stupid to catch on.

            So, why be a mindless chump when you can improve your life and also take a bite out of the bastards in charge?

            The choice is there for the taking, and there is no practical way to prevent you from doing so. It is entirely your choice.

            Good luck.

          9. Mike Stasse Avatar
            Mike Stasse

            WHAT! Our 40W TV uses 1/4 kWh/day….

          10. Johny Avatar
            Johny

            well its a 50 inch plasma that seems to be drawing 500w continuously. It does sound like a lot actually!. I’ve heard they are phasing them out or don’t even sell plasma’s anymore but we’ve had this since 08. Its on around 9 hours a day (no we aren’t glued to the tube, always 1 in 4 of us watching it at some time). PS it actually takes around 5kwh (still a lot), though I had the foxtel box and a lamp plugged into the same power board (oops)

          11. Mike Stasse Avatar
            Mike Stasse

            Ours uses 1.8 kWh/day………… (2 occupants)

            http://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2012/11/21/more-power-of-energy-efficiency/

            If people only realised what can be achieved. Even if we had zero PVs, our bill would be $44 a quarter plus connection fees.

          12. petebergs Avatar
            petebergs

            Good luck wif the 44c that is finished now. (I am subsidising you, so you could show some gratitude) Have also owned a solar thermosyphon hw system for 17 years and is still working .keeping fingers crossed.

          13. Roger Brown Avatar
            Roger Brown

            Yes Newman helped me decide to put a solar system on roof and on my mortgage before he cut it. Over 200,000 also joined me. Your not subsidising me ?, that’s just LNP spin , your just subsidising the poles and wires profit. Its called ” Split and divide politics” While your blaming us , the real thieves are laughing all the way to the bank. Solar really is just taking the cream from the “Peak Loads” from dirty coal and they don’t like it. Less peaks means less cream , so really Solar is helping everyone except for the generators( Govt owned QLD ) or the Singapore govt.

    2. CrankyFranky Avatar
      CrankyFranky

      ‘piss weak … bloody joke’ – that’s the giveaway – depth of thought of a right-wing voter – ‘I don’t like it’ – yeah but what are your reasons? – ‘because I don’t like it’

      go to church and bow your head – and make sure you put some money in the offering box – otherwise the powers that be won’t welcome you back next week – jes’ sayin’ …

  7. dwj Avatar
    dwj

    I have always had a lot of respect for Dick Smith but someone who uses a personal helicopter as their transport of choice has no business lecturing the public on energy issues.

  8. Steven Avatar
    Steven

    Dick’s chosen site (Dungeness) to peddle his wares on nuclear energy is perhaps prophetic. The UK Government rejected Dungeness as a site for new reactors. The Government cited worries about the threat to the local eco-system from coastal
    erosion and flooding as reasons for rejecting Dungeness.

    Dungeness B started generating power in 1983, 13 years behind schedule and at four times the cost estimated to get it up and running. In April it was announced that the reactor was leaking tritium into the groundwater.

    Watts Bar civilian nuclear reactor in the US provides defence with tritium for nuclear warheads. Atomic weapons and nuclear energy are Siamese twins – one cannot survive without the other which rather makes a mockery of Eisenhower’s “peaceful atom,” the non-proliferation treaty and all the other nuclear fairy tales.

    1. Mike Stasse Avatar
      Mike Stasse

      Something else was left out……. the process of decommissioning Dungeness hasn’t finisheded because everyone concerned is howling about the cost.

      In 1965 Dungeness A nuclear power station started generating power. In 1983 it was joined by Dungeness B. Currently, neither plants are generating power. Dungeness A is being decommissioned and Dungeness B is offline [indefinitely I believe…] for maintenance work. In November 2009, Dungeness was rejected by the Government, on environmental grounds, as a site for a new nuclear power station. Decommissioning Dungeness A alone is estimated to cost £1.2 billion, almost double what it cost to build……

      What a great technology……………………………

  9. Peter Fries Avatar
    Peter Fries

    I was very surprised by Dick’s comments. I traveled with his team briefly during the first World Solar Challenge in 1987. He seemed a lot more visionary back then. As for helicopters, can’t blame his love affair – me too. He would drive his team’s solar car, then hitch back to the starting point to pick up his helicopter. It would be very interesting to interview him directly and have him argue against the distributed model using the latest info of systems with storage. Go get em Giles!

  10. Michel Rahme Avatar
    Michel Rahme

    I will never eat Dick Smith Peanut Butter again – that’s going where the Sanitarium peanut butter went!

    I tried finding his email address to highlight his errors and point him in the right direction towards the reneweconomy website to educate himself, but my rather long email was non deliverable to the only email address of Dick’s available! If anyone has his email address please let me know!

  11. Michel Rahme Avatar
    Michel Rahme

    The only part of his documentary I watched on TV was for 5 minutes when he flew down in his helicopter to interview a family in the suburbs with an SS V8 and 4 flat screens – that was all I could take – it was obvious he is a little out of touch!

  12. Martin Nicholson Avatar

    Perhaps there is a place for some balance in this article and the comments that follow it.

    First there is not a contradiction between what Tim Flannery is saying and what Dick Smith is saying. Tim says (and I quote from Giles’ article) “Australians are rushing to embrace solar for a simple reason – it is saving them money, because it is cheaper to generate electricity on the rooftop of their home than to source it through the massive grid.”

    Giles interprets Dick’s message as “renewables are expensive and intermittent, and
    therefore couldn’t do the job.” Now I never heard Dick say the last piece. What he was implying was that roof top solar cannot do the WHOLE job. And he is right.

    The IEA (http://www.energyinachangingclimate.info/IEA%20-%20Solar%20PV%20potential%20on%20buildings%202002.pdf) have done an analysis of rooftop and building façade solar for OECD countries using ALL the available building area (including residential and industrial) the ranges of potential solar generation to total electricity consumption in the country were from 14.5% for Japan to 57.8% for the USA. Clearly rooftop solar cannot do the whole job – even with storage.

    There is no contradiction between what Tim and Dick said. Tim is saying solar is now cheaper than the grid (and without batteries that is probably true). Dick is saying it can’t do the whole job so we need something else as well.

    1. Leo Avatar
      Leo

      Absolutely spot on you are. Perfect example of how biased these articles are.

    2. Guest Avatar
      Guest

      you are so homo fight Harrison Douglass

    3. Matthew Piccoli Avatar
      Matthew Piccoli

      Martin. Harrison Dougglass said your a homo and wants to fight. do you accept?

  13. Jonathan Prendergast Avatar
    Jonathan Prendergast

    Discussing intermittency for wind and solar is a bit of a red herring. There is 1 thing more intermittent than wind and solar, and that is demand. Demand drops at night (and weekends), rises in the morning, afternoon and evening, particularly on very hot or cold days.

    Coal and Nuclear do not adjust to differences in demand cost effectively. They like a flat load, or ‘base load’. In this case, they take the easiest bit of load to supply, and leave the rest up to Gas, Hydro or even Solar PV, and in the future Renewable Gas and Concentrate Solar Thermal with Storage.

    We even see the spot price of wholesale electricity go negative at night sometimes as the coal generation wants to continue operating. There are large costs for coal generation to re-start, so in most cases it is uneconomic for it to occur frequently.

    Just like we can’t have a grid just with wind and solar, we also have never had a grid just with coal, or any other single technology. We need a variety of continuous, intermittent and dispatch-able generation and storage, to meet the variety of demands and conditions.

    1. Goldie444 Avatar
      Goldie444

      I was going to reply with
      “And that ‘something else as well’ is WIND.
      Solar people don’t say ‘only solar and nothing is required’ and wind people don’t say ‘only wind and nothing else is required’.” but Jonathan has said it better than I could have written.

  14. Morgan Maximillion Matta Avatar
    Morgan Maximillion Matta

    Is proofreading a thing of the past?

  15. CrankyFranky Avatar
    CrankyFranky

    interesting – NSW has the most solar hot water systems ? – when I looked at this decades ago hot water was a much more efficient use of solar than PVR electricity – so this makes sense, also with likely usage – IF you have hot showers in the evening

    unless you can use most of your electricity during the day or store/get paid to feed back into the grid during the day when solar output is at it highest, it otherwise seems problematic for PVR

    so yes I agree with solar hot water – my problem is retrofitting existing strata units – doesn’t seem feasible yet – some daytime common area & garage lighting maybe but that’s chicken feed compared to hot water the largest electricity cost component for the typical household.

  16. Matthew Piccoli Avatar
    Matthew Piccoli

    Martin Nicholson , Harry Douglass wants to go one on one In the ring this Saturday night. do you accept the challenge?

  17. Matthew Piccoli Avatar
    Matthew Piccoli

    Pat Tuckwell wants to fight the almighty Martin Nicoloson on Sunay night at the WWE super slam

  18. Matthew Piccoli Avatar
    Matthew Piccoli

    Lachlan Watkins and Apples 4 lyf

  19. Matthew Piccoli Avatar
    Matthew Piccoli

    Pat loves big chekena

  20. Matthew Piccoli Avatar
    Matthew Piccoli

    Ginshely Marronese

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