Energy storage – a saviour for networks or a Trojan horse?

death spiral

Australian network operators are turning increasingly to the use of battery storage to solve their problems with network management, particularly in grid demand. But just as storage looms as a potential glue to keep the networks together, it could just as easily offer the technology and the means to break them apart.

Australian power industry investor Tag Pacific predicts storage has the potential to become a major disruptive technology for the conventional power business – at the same time offering networks a unique opportunity to stabilise their grid management, but also offering customers the opportunity to leave the grid altogether.

Tag Pacific chairman Nathan Wise says the disruption from storage will come because it will challenge the traditional model of centralised generation and transmission over great distances.

The move towards decentralised power generation (such as solar) is changing the relationship with the grid. He says that while storage is needed by the network operators to manage those changes, and new technologies such as electric vehicles, it will also give clients the option of taking themselves off the grid altogether, presenting a new problem for networks

Tag Pacific builds power systems for the mining and petroleum sector, as well as designing and building solar installations for residential, industrial and commercial clients, and supplying components. It also installs trigeneration systems and back-up power systems in the CBD and for clients such as Sydney Airport.

Tag Pacific, through its MPower subsidiary, is currently running a two-year pilot project for Victorian electricity distributor SP Ausnet, looking at how energy storage systems can address demand problems when the peaks exceed network capacity.

The trial is monitoring power demands within individual households and how the use of stored power during peak-load periods can reduce demand on the network and avoid peak tariff rates, cutting costs for householders.

Wise says MPower is developing the “smarts and controls” that sit around the battery bank and which interact with the grid and the solar systems. The system monitors power demands in individual households and stores power for use in peak-load periods, reducing the demand on the network and energy costs for the householder.

The systems incorporate rooftop solar PV, advanced lithium-ion batteries, bi-directional inverters and programmable controllers capable of being monitored and controlled remotely.

Utilities are clearly interested in looking at how energy storage can be used within the networks. Energex, Ausgrid and others are all undergoing trials and pilot projects to look at the potential to use the technology to boost the reliability of networks, particularly in regional areas, and avoid costly upgrades, and to manage the high penetrations of solar, including in metropolitan areas. They are also looking at electric vehicles, and the role of their batteries – both charging and potential discharging –will also have an impact on grid management.

However, while utilities will use storage as a key element of grid management, Wise says there is also potential for battery storage to be used to take homes, and even businesses and communities  – off the grid.

“You can see how this could be quite disruptive,” he says. It will come down to cost, and where the value of storage can be found and exploited – for either the consumer or the operator.

The company is already seeing the economics of storage work in remote areas where the cost of a network connection is very high. “What will be very interesting to see is as the cost of battery falls, whether that impacts on decisions by households and communities to make that move.”

MPower recently won two awards for community storage and control systems in remote communities in WA, and for off-grid renewable energy storage systems for three communities in the Northern Territory.

The WA system – which also addressed issues of periods of rapid weather change – enabled more renewable energy to be used in isolated electricity networks, particularly in the Pilbara region. The Northern territory system allowed for a significant reduction in the use of diesel.

“We are positioning ourselves at the leading edge of the energy storage and power convergence trend in Australia, which these initiatives show has particular relevance for remote communities and individual households.”

Tag Pacific also provides technologies to the solar industry, and Wise says that while the technology is growing in viability, even as most subsidies are removed, it not yet at a “tipping point.” But Wise says that is not because the economics don’t work, it’s more of a lack of knowledge.

“I don’t think solar is the first port of call for households and commercial properties when they look at energy,” he says.

“They look at network connection and solar as afterthought. The penetration levels show it is certainly gaining traction – but councils are not requiring it to be built on new houses.”

But he says most people that do look at it, find there is value in installing solar. “It’s a lack of knowledge rather than economics,’ he says that is holding the industry back.

Still, Wise says it is a difficult industry because volumes and price changes change so rapidly.  “It’s clear that the cost of solar is going down, and the cost of diesel is going up. It’s one thing for the technology to be viable to a customer, it’s another thing to be able to make money from that business.”

 

Comments

69 responses to “Energy storage – a saviour for networks or a Trojan horse?”

  1. barrie harrop Avatar
    barrie harrop

    Energy storage at a commercial level is not viable,payback too long and they never talk about a sinking fund for the cost of battery replacements.

    1. Professor Ray Wills Avatar
      Professor Ray Wills

      Hi Barrie – if you think that, you are not talking to the right supplier!

      As network support and as an alternative to upgrading poles and wires, batteries are already cheaper – add batteries to a substation and charge overnight to dispatch during peak the next day and you increase the utilisation of your existing network much cheaper than having to add new transmission capacity.

      In terms of a sinking fund, it won’t need to be all that large as batteries are quickly getting cheaper, and will get cheaper at least as fast as solar did, so by the time replacement comes in 20 years (as for example BYD’s 6000 + cycle Li Fe PO4), cost won’t be a challenge…

      Must be time we caught up!

      1. barrie harrop Avatar
        barrie harrop

        Fine Ray, we are talking to customers who require up 35MW ,24/7-365 days per year have any battery storage group in mind that can handle this storage?

        1. Miles Harding Avatar
          Miles Harding

          See above. That’s where aquion are headed.

          They are entering the mass market, so proof is at hand.

        2. Steve Avatar
          Steve

          The Redflow (redflow.com) containerised m90 product looks promising, but it looks like it’s still in trials.

        3. dwj Avatar
          dwj

          Short of having local hydro or a salt cavern, hydrogen storage in steel pipeline is the best solution I have seen.
          Assuming reciprocating engine generation, steel pipeline can store compressed hydrogen at an energy density of about 100 Wh/kg, which is comparable with many battery technologies. However this is just kgs of low grade steel as opposed to complex battery structures and steel pipelines last for many decades with minimal maintenance. You can scale it to any size you want.
          The downside is the 30% overall efficiency. However if you combine an efficient battery for daily cycling with hydrogen for long term storage it could be cost effective, as little energy would pass through.

          1. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            30% efficiency for hydrogen makes it a likely non-starter.

            Were that the only choice then it would make more sense to greatly over build wind/solar capacity and minimize storage.

          2. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            Let’s look at that 30% efficiency thing a bit more.

            Let’s say you’ve got some 4 cent per kWh wind you want to store for later. And you want a kWh out the other end.

            You’ve got to start with 3.3 kWh of wind, 13.3 cents worth, to end up with one kWh after a 30% loss. That stored kWh of electricity will cost you 13.3 cents just for the initial electricity, then add in the cost of storage.

            With an 80% efficient storage technology you need only 1.25 kW starting electricity, 5 cents worth, to end up with one kWh usable.

            If storing helium is very cheap then putting some aside for deep backup might make sense, but unlikely for normal storage needs.

          1. barrie harrop Avatar
            barrie harrop

            $500m for 35MW a tad expensive.

          2. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            Gee whiz, the first version of a new scale of a relatively new technology is a tad expensive? unheard of. When you deny that the technology exists at a particular scale and someone can produce multiple examples of it working already at that scale coming back with glib remarks doesn’t really help your position.

          3. barrie harrop Avatar
            barrie harrop

            Actually Rob, what i said i doubted it was viable at $500m for 35MW its fairyland stuff.

          4. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            Actually you directly questioned the existence of any storage system capabkle of handling 35 MW. “customers who require up 35MW ,24/7-365 days per year have any battery storage group in mind that can handle this storage?”

          5. coomadoug Avatar
            coomadoug

            Ron
            Albert Einstien said in 1952 that nuclear will provide electricity in the future but added that it is dumb to consider in his opinion and suggested we should find a way to generate and store electricity using the sun.
            He also said that ” when you have a man arguing with an idiot, you actually have two idiots”
            Incidentally I like your contribution here. Your are appropriately optimistic and we need that going forward into the climate delema. But what a marvelous opportunity is this new renewable energy push

          6. Miles Harding Avatar
            Miles Harding

            That price sounds silly! … Lets see…

            I know that LiFePO4 is running about $500/kWh these days and can easily be discharged at a 1C rate, so this part would be $17.5M.

            The inverter should be something similar in large sizes, certainly less than $1000 per kW, so $35M max.
            Really, the inverter should be *the PV inverter*, so the incremental inverter cost is near zero for adding battery capacity.
            This sort of close-coupling also makes the battery very efficient, probably near 90% for LiFePO4.

            I am getting the idea that the price has been misquoted and should be less than $50M, possibly as low as $25M for battery storage.

            One issue is the LCOE of a battery:
            The lifespan of LiFePO4 is something like 7** years at a daily 70% DOD or 2550 cycles. This corresponds to 1785 kWh of energy buffered per kWh of battery, or $0.28 per kWh buffered by the battery.

            ** I have no experience beyond this, but it is looking like 10+ years may be more likely, in which case the LCOE is nearer 20 cents per kWh.

          7. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            Rerun that using EOS Energy Storage’s zinc-air battery which they report to cost $160/kWh. >10,000 100% DoD cycles and a 30 year calender life.

            They seem to be manufacturing and are scheduled for real world testing on multiple grids starting in a couple of months.

            They claim “all in” storage system costs, including inverter, real estate, and even profit for the owner is roughly 10 cents per kWh.

            If they prove out and start selling to end-users then this will be a very disruptive battery for places where retail electricity costs are high and sunshine abundant. (Australia, for example.)

          8. Miles Harding Avatar
            Miles Harding

            That’s more like it!
            Even if this one isn’t the ultimate because of zinc shortages, there is so much activity in low cost stationary power batteries that a solution like this is inevitable.

            Like Aquion, the proof of the concept is close at hand, we will not have to wait years to see how these technologies actually perform.

            When talking storage batteries, carbon based ultra-capacitors are also likely to be competitive eventually.

          9. coomadoug Avatar
            coomadoug

            Thanks for the info miles. We must not forget that power for an hour is one thing and needs to be cheap. But the battery energy on the grid adds value beyond this in the availability and flexibility of injection in to disturbances in reliable controllable, time frames and quantities. Location is another factor. 35 mw on the top end of a fully loaded dirty coal generator is just 35 mws of dirty energy, take it weather you want it or not. But 35 mw of instantly available energy with smarts to inject in a timely fashion and available for injection at key constrain prone locations, is in a different ball park in value.

          10. coomadoug Avatar
            coomadoug

            Barrie
            There is a thing on the grid called ancillary service. This includes frequency control and voltage control. This makes a smart switched fridge, stove, heater, whatever, a potential smart switching ancillary service asset.
            At the moment generators on line on the grid compete for the provision of this service bidding in such ability at various prices. It is an efficiency impediment to provide as generators have to run off their maximum efficiency to provide it. Also the increased energy has response time delay issues. I would expect that battery technologies could be applied in large scale with such speed and precision there may be many values in this 35mw example that will enable a high return in contract provision of such products.

            I look forward to further discussion to expose value in power assets and the elephants in the room that are becoming a bit too active to remain unseen

          11. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            there’s a difference between MW and MW hours…

          12. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            Thankyou for your insightful comment, this battery can supply 36MW of peak power output for a one hour period making it both a 36MW and 36 MWh battery.

          13. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            But rob, your comment was in reply to Barrie’s which was “require up 35MW ,24/7-365” ?

          14. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            The battery is capable is supplying 35MW of instantaneous power any time of the day or night 365 days a year. If you are suggesting it should be so large that it can supply 35MW continuously for a year with no recharging then your comment is not even worth replying to and you can disregard the above.

          15. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            Im not implying that at all. Barrie implied that there wasn’t a battery that could handle the storage of 35mw 24/7 and you replied with “Like this 36MW battery already operating in China” which is incorrect…

          16. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            What is incorrect about it?

          17. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            Fear of renewables.

            That’s my guess.

          18. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            Billie said “we are talking to customers who require up 35MW ,24/7-365 days per year have any battery storage group in mind that can handle this storage?”

            So that’s 35 megawatts instantaneous power 24/7. IF this load is provided by renewables during the day then 35MW would need to be covered at night. 12 hours of storage to provide 35Mw is more like a 400Mwh battery.

            So your reply “Like this 36MW battery already operating in China?” is absolutely no where near the capacity Billie was referring to…

          19. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            First of all its buffering predominantly wind so it doesn’t need to buffer a full nights worth of demand. Batteries in the context of renewable buffering are all about short term buffering of 1-2 hours to shave the peaks and fill the valleys of intermittent fluctuations, it saves the need for spinning reserve and allows you to use cheaper plants that can be started up within several hours rather then the seconds to minutes that is required without the battery buffer, there are cheaper ways to supply power if supply is going to remain low for many hours, as battery costs fall the transition point will shift and eventually they may be the cheapest for even multi-day storage but not yet.
            Secondly now it is you who is confusing MW and MWh. He asked for a battery capable of supplying a 35 Mw load, he never specified an energy capacity or a duration for which the battery should be apple to continuously supply that load.

          20. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            He’s obviously referring to an off grid 35 mw installation otherwise he wouldn’t of have mentioned “requires 24/7″…
            And he never mentioned anything to do with wind…

          21. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            He never specified on grid or offgrid, never specified a storage capacity, never specified a duration of back up capacity and I know he never mentioned anything about wind, my example related to a wind/solar/battery hybrid system in China. But thank god you’re here to tell us what Barrie and I were really talking about, our addled brains couldn’t cope without your grounding influence.

          22. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            Alright then why mention the battery in china?

          23. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            Because he asked for examples of batteries with a capacity to supply 35MW of power which is exactly what that battery is capable of doing. Why don’t you contribute something useful to the conversation instead of just abstractly questioning what others meant but didn’t say, or go away.

          24. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            You’re really failing to understand. I’m not even going to bother with you anymore…

          25. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            Bye…

          26. RobS Avatar
            RobS

            No, I understand what you are saying perfectly, I’m failing to agree that’s what Barry was asking about and what I was answering. Your opinion on what his actual question was is really quite irrelevant isn’t it? Unless you wish to ask a different question or add some informative commentary to the debate rather then mindlessly debating what somebody else really meant then a pray you do stop bothering.

          27. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            No one talks about storing electricity for a year.

            You’re misreading.

          28. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            Bob, ive just copied and pasted exactly what Billie said?

          29. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            Parrots can repeat words without understanding their meaning….

          30. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            Obviously rob doesn’t understand the meaning….

      2. Miles Harding Avatar
        Miles Harding

        Batteries are a rapidly moving target.

        There are a number of projects to develop batteries that meet the requirements of high efficiency, long life, low cost and low toxicity.

        Companies such as http://www.aquionenergy.com have very promising products that are made from common materials. There is also a group at Murdoch University working on similar, but they are damned by the Australian academic environment that demonizes entrepreneurs.

        I expect that the stationary battery market will come to be dominated by this sort of technology, rather than lithium-ion.

    2. RobS Avatar
      RobS

      Just as grid interactive PV at a commercial level was not viable 10 years ago when you could only justify it offsetting diesel generated power in off grid locations and fuel cell generated power on space craft. The part your ignoring is this thing called technological progress, prices for storage are just approaching the point where there economics are in the same ballpark as other options, particularly again where expensive peaking power plants are your back up like the diesel off grid was to PV 10 years ago. That approaching cost comparison is why there is increasing interest. Just as with grid solar initially it will only be justified where the cost of supplying back up power is the most expensive and as costs fall there will be “parity creep” as more and more places storage becomes cheaper than the alternative. People who argue against such solutions seem intent on taking snapshots in time and saying “see? it doesn’t work in that setting” meanwhile they ignore the dynamic falling prices that gradually but inevitably make it work in more and more settings every month. It has happened and is happening with PV and it is happening and will continue to happen with storage.

  2. Jennifer Gow Avatar
    Jennifer Gow

    perhaps the crucial issue is how state governments and energy utilities treat the current users of grid interactive solar power. When we moved to Queensland we installed 1.4kw solar power on our rooftop as well as solar hot water over 5 years ago and received a feedin tariff of 44cents a unit which partially offset our electricity bill. A couple of years ago we installed an additional 1kw of panels when the price of panels had halved from the time of our original installation. At the same time we also switched to another energy supplier to get a 52 cent feedin tariff. This additional solar capacity as well as our frugal energy consumptions in a reasonably energy efficient house means that our spring to autumn electricity accounts are moderately in credit.
    However with the election of the Newman state government in response to their riding instructions form the electricity industry, continue to deamonise the owners of rooftop solar, have slashed the feedin tariff to 8 cents while the supply charge is 24 cents and continue to threaten further punitive measures such as increased network charges for solar households and reversion to a gross feedin tariff.
    We will be able to hang on to our current feedin tariff while we live in this home but as soon as we move we would revert to the 8 cents as would the buyers of our house. Hence we have already factored in the installation of a grid independent solar power system with perhaps a fuel cell backup when next we move house.
    There would have to be a massive change in the policies of the electricity companies and the state government for us to do otherwise.
    The situation reminds me of a wonderful line in Catch 22
    “What if everyone felt that way?” … “Then I would be a damned fool to think otherwise.”
    Hence the death spiral is a real and present danger to the electricity suppliers.

    1. Harry00 Avatar
      Harry00

      solar + batteries + fuel cell and then factor in the life time of all the components. Surely this is a hell of a lot more expensive than staying on grid.
      Oh and not only is the death spiral a danger to the electricity suppliers but it’s a danger to the millions of Australians who can’t go off grid. Utilities suffer, they also suffer…..

      1. taiyoo Avatar
        taiyoo

        Hearing today about the utilities and their record profits makes this talk of death spirals seem a bit premature. They are waging a war alright, but not to protect Australians who can’t go off grid, or their ‘failing’ business models, but to protect their fat, and growing, profits. Perhaps it suits utilities to allow the death spiral misconception (they are very good at pr and cintrolling the message afterall) pervade the discussion, makes politicians and regulators (AEMC for example) more malleable and receptive to requests for protection from those evil solar panels.
        A touch cynical perhaps? Maybe, but I do remember speaking to an executive of a big miner 18 months ago who said they had evaluated the risk and cost of a certain environmental policy and decided the best bang for their buck was to lobby politicians and regulators for protection rather than do anything to reduce the environmental impact in question.

      2. Jennifer Gow Avatar
        Jennifer Gow

        The only direction the price of grid connected power is going is up while rooftop solar has already achieved better than grid parity in Brisbane and the the price of solar panels, inverters and batteries is going down tho the point that grid independent power is probably close to grid parity already. As I stated before our electricity consumption is fairly frugal helped by the passive solar features of our house, energy efficient appliances, solar hot water and CFL and LED lighting. Currently we have a 2.4 kW solar power system and this probably generates over 50% of the power we consume. On this basis we estimate that a 5Kw system with battery storage would make us self sufficient perhaps with the occasional need for supplementary power from a generator or possibly a fuel cell system depending on whether this achieves the expected level of development in the next 5 years.
        You are absolutely correct that the death spiral will imply substantial increases in power costs for people who are not in a position to go off grid. It would be a rather good idea for state governments to keep this in mind and stop scapegoating an punishing households and businesses with rooftop solar and develop alternatives to the gold plating of the distribution network that is the primary driver of escalating power prices.

        1. Harry00 Avatar
          Harry00

          Actually with the removal of the carbon tax, the ending of the smart meter scheme in VIC etc power prices are predicted to drop in many states. (hopefully)
          Gold plating seems to be an issue in QLD and NSW, but network cost’s in VIC for example have actually declined in recent years meaning gold plating isn’t the culprit. Makes me wonder then why power prices in Vic have doubled since 2007…

          1. Jennifer Gow Avatar
            Jennifer Gow

            Well the carbon price has little to do with it — perhaps a little more in Victoria because you have the two filthiest brown coal fired power stations in Australia. I expect there has been more than a touch of profiteering given the level of privatization of the power industry screwing as much from their assets before they get stranded.

          2. coomadoug Avatar
            coomadoug

            Great consumer logic Jennifer.

            The winners in the power industry need to think quick.
            One huge change is already happening around the world.
            The appearance of diminishing demand needs a response. The generators need to go inside those energy holes and be part of the products that make them possible.

            I haven’t heard enough talk along these lines yet. There are power company leaders still saying that after the recession, the loads will return. I believe improved economies will accelerate the load decline and apart from that, there is no economic decline in Australia. We continue to grow.

            I think there can be a major move into the consumer load holes by the generation companies. For example, why not substantially subsidise the cost of electric cars by adopting smart switching control of the batteries and assist the car companies

          3. coomadoug Avatar
            coomadoug

            Further to the load holes.
            The electric car, be it battery or fuel cell, will turn the fuel industry on it’s ear. There will be a sudden community awareness, “hey petrol is ten times dearer then electricity”.
            A kwh in petrol is 1.50 and the petrol car can use only 20% of it. The electric kwh is 30 cents and you can use 70%.

            The petrol demand, if it hopped onto the electricity grid would be a 40% increase in demand. But this will not eventuate for a power company that sits back waiting for the grid to start crying for energy. It wont do so. The increase in solar deployment and the smart switching of storage within load zones and homes will be more then the 40%.
            Get into the home guys.

          4. Sean Avatar
            Sean

            Nope!
            Victorian brown coal generators got a free ride with massive subsidies (didnt make the greens happy), and the carbon tax in general hasn’t lifted the cost of generation in any substantial way.
            The price of power still sits at about $0.05/kwh wholesale. The price hasn’t changed for the last few years.

            Ridiculously poor regulation of the distribution and retail networks is why you have such bad power prices. A complete disconnect between consumption behaviour and price might have something to do with it.

          5. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            They say that retail services make up almost 55% of bills in Vic which is pretty ridiculous

          6. Sean Avatar
            Sean

            Amen!

          7. Miles Harding Avatar
            Miles Harding

            Consider yourself well serviced!

          8. coomadoug Avatar
            coomadoug

            Sean

            0.05 dollars for a kilowatt hour of energy is ridiculously cheap. You pay 30 times that for a kwh in your car. When you consider you need 5 kilowatt hours of energy in the form of petrol to use one as mechanical energy in the car we see a huge problem emerging for an oil baron.
            One kwh in your car battery or fuel cell gives you a very attractive comparison. The electric car and the products in the smart home of the modern world is the future home of power industry.
            The power grid is an old idea in this environment. My risk of power failure can be eliminated by arrangements among the products in my home.

          9. Sean Avatar
            Sean

            different perspective says that $1.5 for petrol is really expensive.

            The power grid is still useful for high density, high consumption, like aluminium smelting for example.

            I am hoping there will be a day when people see their roofs as a business, a passive lemonade stand to supplement their income.

          10. Harry00 Avatar
            Harry00

            With major future developments being high density and apartment blocks, the grid is far from an old idea. And in the few years ive spent off grid about 10 years ago, I suffered more loss of power than being on grid.

      3. coomadoug Avatar
        coomadoug

        Harry
        When you buy an air conditioner for your home the cost to the grid is 8 times the purchase price of the air con. Batteries in your home would be put there and smart switched for much much less. You need to move ahead with your thinking. You sound like a 1975 Kodak executive looking at the first digital camera that was invented by one of their own engineers and they told him it would be no good.

        I bet there are already contracts written between energy companies and electric car manufacturers

        1. Harry00 Avatar
          Harry00

          I take back the part where I said “heating/cooling systems” as they are the main cause of peak load and and having a battery in them would be a good way to offset that. I also agree that electric car batteries may also play a large role in interacting with the grid which would make efficient use of infrastructure . I just don’t agree with “crazy to even consider a house connected to the grid” as the grid will always be used in one way or another. Some may completely depend on it, some may use it on occasions when their batteries are running low..

      4. coomadoug Avatar
        coomadoug

        Harry
        The connection fee for the grid charged now will buy you about 7% of the equipment you need to set up for solar-post 2020. Put that alongside a replacement time frame of 15 years and you have a business model. And yes it is already happenning.

        Certainly for high density living there is not the roof space for the solar. This brings fourth another myth, that pv on roofs is the main solar platform. This is not so. Large scale solar around the world is tha main source of solar development. Contractural arrangements for such schemes to store in such high density loads with smart switching of products is obviously the path they will explore, as will wind farms.

        Then we will have a stability control dispersed across the entire network with response in the milli second time frames. So the black out that will cause a battery home grief will be eradicated from a network point if view. 90% of the response and adjustment will happen in the home. The density of infrastructure required on future grids is greatly by capabilities

        1. Harry00 Avatar
          Harry00

          What I’m trying to say is that for many rooftop pv isn’t an option, some won’t want solar some cant have solar etc. How will we feed large scale solar into these homes and high density living? well the grid of course. And storage within may be a good idea if they do not find a solution to viable large scale storage but then again that may present limitations. I don’t think blackouts are an issue here in Australia. What you mention may work well in countries with unreliable power grids such as USA or India. Time will tell what happens of course, there are many possibilities.

          1. Bob_Wallace Avatar
            Bob_Wallace

            I agree. We will continue to need and use the grid. Some won’t be able to install their own generation and/or storage. Electricity will be cheapest is we have access to wind, hydro and other electricity generation.

            Storage may turn out to be cheapest at the utility level rather than the end-user level. If, for example, Ambri’s liquid metal battery works out it is likely to be cheaper than any chemical battery and given that it operates at very high temperatures it would not be appropriate for end-user locations.

  3. Sean Avatar
    Sean

    its about efficiencies of scale. if they are big enough, then the network operators win, smaller, and everyone will want one.

  4. Alex Avatar
    Alex

    If the gentailers were smart (which they’re obviously not) they would be moving to and aggressively marketing their own solar-leasing products which could include battery storage. Through economies of scale and in-house expertise they could provide these products to the consumer more cheaply and still have income security while the consumer has cost certainty. A win-win. Instead, they’re shooting themselves in the foot while cutting off their nose to spite their face. It’s rather ugly.

    1. Sean Avatar
      Sean

      If the gentailers were smart they would aggressively market renewables and carbon tax as a catastrophe. There is already a HUGE oversupply (9GW or so) of generation capability in the conventional thermal coal market. Whole power stations are laying idle, costing millions of dollars. Renewable energy comes along and reduces the amount of market they are competing for further.

      Oh wait. They are.
      People should take reports of what the future of the energy supply should be from people with MASSIVE perverse financial motivations with more than just a grain of salt.

      Gentailers were a huge regulatory faux pas, and we are all paying for it.

  5. coomadoug Avatar
    coomadoug

    Clearly , with the broadband connection of the nation, battery technology that does promise a kwh per kilogram at a competitive price, with increasing innovation in metering, switching and household energy consumption, the energy companies have little choice. They have to move into the load blocks before they disappear as a customer. Energy companies could share the cost of car batteries and smart switch these and other products and in return generously subsidise power to the customer.

    There are endless possibilities for the companies that see energy will be dispersed and de centralised. If they dont knock on the customers door and ask nicely if they can help, then they will have to try another business

  6. coomadoug Avatar
    coomadoug

    Taiyo

    You have actually defined the death spiral and supported the argument in your effort to describe how it isn’t happenning

    1. taiyoo Avatar
      taiyoo

      Really? Double pike with a reverse twist you say? Had no idea I was so agile 😉
      Are you saying I defined the death spiral as meaning an end to bank-scale super profits for utilities? I always thought it was a tad more serious – more like an irreversible breakdown of business models and bankruptcy. This doesn’t seem to be happening, yet, but the main point I clearly failed to get across was that it suits the utilities for us to believe they are in the midst of a death spiral. They don’t actually have to be in a death spiral to enjoy the benefits that being protected from death spiralitis by regulators and politicians (eg solar only network access charges) brings. Perhaps they know this and are seeking some additional economic rent? Gleeful reporting of the end of their industry does little to help.
      Anyway, slightly off topic.

  7. coomadoug Avatar
    coomadoug

    Harry
    In 20 years time it is most likely that many appliances will have battery when purchased for the home. This includes car fridge and other items. These could be smart switched for charging and back up for other appliances. Going off grid was tough and still is but not in the future. If we find that fuel cell technology gets in front it is crazy to even consider a house connected to the grid. I would think in 2050 a house with poles out front and wires hooked up will be a renovators dream.
    This makes me think of the fact that Kodak invented the digital camera and went broke because the boad kept dreaming up reasons digital would not work

    1. Harry00 Avatar
      Harry00

      It would be silly for stationary appliances such as fridges, TV’s, electric ovens, central heating/cooling systems to include batteries which would need replacement every certain amount of years and then factor in increased failure rates due to the increased complexity of those appliances. Fuel cells also have a limited life time, also what would they be run off? the price of natural gas is predicted to triple in coming years and my gas bill is already more than my power bill. We pay around $360 per quarter in power which we have no problem in paying at all. And well you’re right, in the future there isn’t going to be poles and wires out the front as everything will be underground.
      Individual households make up a smaller part in total electricity demand, sky scrapers, shopping centres, factories, industry make up a large part.

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