Is this the last tango for nuclear?

ENSIA

nuclear

Everybody loves a comeback story. If you like the U.S. nuclear power industry, it’s a Michael Jordan-type gallant return. If you don’t like nukes, it’s more of a Gloria Swanson gruesome comeback in Sunset Boulevard.

Similar to both Jordan and Swanson’s character, Norma Desmond, the industry has tried more than one revival. The current one may be more about salvaging economically dicey nuclear reactors than building new ones.

Promise and Peril

There is some promise for nuclear: Projects in Georgia, South Carolina and Tennessee may yield the first new nuclear plants in decades. The industry and its advocates are touting new, safer reactor designs.

In addition, thanks to a federal appeals court decision, utilities no longer have to add to the $30 billion burden of paying for the abandoned Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Repository. And the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is pressing hard for its rules to reduce carbon emissions, which would squeeze competing coal-fired plants.

But on the flip side, Wisconsin, California, Florida and Vermont are shuttering aging nuclear plants, and some planned new ones have been shelved in Maryland, New York, Texas and Florida. Closing and decommissioning isn’t cheap — usually a billion dollars or more. As many as seven reactors in Illinois, Ohio and New York could close this year if not rescued by ratepayers.

Nukes also have been getting their lunch eaten in the deregulated electricity marketplace, mostly by cheaper natural gas. More on that in a bit.

Those new nukes are falling behind schedule and soaring over budget, making an already-jittery Wall Street even more skeptical. Earlier this week the builders of two new reactors at Georgia’s Plant Vogtle disclosed additional delays and overruns, potentially making the project over a billion dollars in the hole and three years late. The demise of Yucca Mountain means there’s nowhere for the industry to permanently store its waste. And just when you thought it was safe to atomically boil the water, Fukushima provided the first nuclear mega-disaster since Chernobyl a quarter-century earlier, fairly or unfairly reviving public unease about nuclear energy’s safety in the U.S.

And it didn’t help when the longtime CEO of America’s biggest nuclear player stuck the financial fork in shortly after his retirement.

John Rowe, a longtime nuclear booster and former CEO of Exelon, the Chicago-based offspring of mergers between Commonwealth Edison of Illinois, Philadelphia’s PG&E and Baltimore-based Constellation, oversaw 23 reactors. “I’m the nuclear guy,” Rowe told a gathering at the University of Chicago two weeks after his 2012 retirement. “And you won’t get better results with nuclear. It just isn’t economic, and it’s not economic within a foreseeable time frame.”

Rowe was commenting on plans for newly built reactors. But old ones, including up to six of Exelon’s fleet, may be on the block.

States to the Rescue

In the 1990s, the federal government and many states moved to deregulate electricity. Leaving every potential power source free to marketplace dynamics, it was reasoned, would serve ratepayers well and promote competition among generators. The biggest boosters of deregulation were heavy industries looking to reduce their enormous power bills, and an up-and-coming energy trader called Enron, which thrived for a few years before collapsing in scandal.

The industry’s embrace of deregulation isn’t universal, though. In at least four states, nuclear utilities have sought state government assistance to benefit nuclear plants, if not keep them alive and running.

Officials at Chicago-based Exelon say the free market may soon kill off several of its nukes. Exelon’s CEO has been outspoken about its opposition to subsidies for its wind industry, but the company is not shy about seeking short-term help for its own financially troubled nuclear plants.

Illinois may be nuclear’s short-term ground zero. Exelon operates nukes at six sites in the state and acknowledged that three — the two-reactor complexes at Quad Cities and Byron, and the Clinton single reactor site — may have priced themselves out of the market. Closure of the three could mean 7,800 job losses at the plants and related industries, according to Exelon’s spokesman Paul Adams. A report earlier this month by several Illinois state agencies cited a smaller job-loss figure, 2,500, but added that the state could add 9,600 jobs in the next four years through energy efficiency and a renewable energy standard.

While Exelon CEO Chris Crane insists that the company is not seeking a bailout, and Exelon spokesman Adams said that all “energy technologies should compete on their own merits,” Crain’s Chicago Business and other publications have reported that the company is pushing state regulators to restructure power markets in a way that critics say could stack the deck for their beleaguered nukes. Exelon senior vice president Kathleen Barron told the Illinois Commerce Commission last September that the company needs rate increases that would bring in $580 million in additional revenue to keep its nukes afloat. That extra cash would come from ratepayers, particularly at times of peak power usage.

While Exelon bristles at mention of the word “bailout,” others see it as exactly that. “We don’t think Illinois consumers should be called upon to bail out Illinois nuclear plants,” said Howard Learner, executive director of the nonprofit Environmental Law & Policy Center.

Exelon also is pushing the state for a carbon tax, which would hit its fossil fuel rivals in the energy market but leave nuclear plants unscathed. Years ago, the company swore off coal for electricity, selling its coal assets. Its Illinois nukes comprise 95 percent of the power Exelon sells in Illinois and neighboring states. Exelon also is banking on its nukes in Illinois and elsewhere to help states meet the EPA’s proposed carbon reduction mandates.

Another Exelon nuke, the Ginna plant near Rochester, New York, is on the brink. Facing a deadline on power purchases from the 45 year-old plant’s biggest buyer, Rochester Gas & Electric, Ginna will close without a rate hike, according to Exelon. The plant’s license doesn’t expire till 2029.

Ohio is considering rate hikes to save several aging coal plants and the Davis-Besse reactor near Toledo. FirstEnergy, operator of the trouble-plagued Davis-Besse, calls for an estimated $117 million “power purchase agreement” for its ratepayers. Longtime energy activist Harvey Wasserman called the potential rate hikes a “pillaging” of Ohio.

The utilities have spiced up the battle by resisting efforts to disclose financial data that could shed light on the plants’ financial health, and the need for a rate hike. And while the state ponders lending a hand to coal and nuclear, the Ohio Legislature effectively smothered wind and solar in the state by killing renewable energy standards last June.

Florida also has pitched in to help the industry: In mid-January, Florida’s Department of Environmental Protection drew fire from conservationists when it loosened oversight over hot water discharges from the Turkey Point energy complex south of Miami. Turkey Point’s two reactors and three fossil-fuel plants dump heated water into a four-decade-old network of cooling canals, where algae blooms and rising salinity are believed to threaten to coastal waters, public drinking water wells and Everglades recovery. In writing a new permit for the plant, the DEP cut local water officials out of the regulatory process, leaving the state agency in sole command of the canal field, a radiator-like matrix of 165 miles of waterways extending south from Turkey Point.

Unlike the reactors in Ohio, Illinois and New York, there’s no talk of imminent financial demise at Turkey Point. In fact, Florida Power and Light has state approval to build two more, larger reactors at the site, and is awaiting a green light from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, expected in 2016.

Comments

42 responses to “Is this the last tango for nuclear?”

  1. Billy Bangle Avatar
    Billy Bangle

    Every nuclear power plant closed down is millions of tonnes of CO2 added to the atmosphere. The costs of both nuclear and renewables is a challenge, because we can’t expect Nigeria or Afghanistan or Haiti to not build coal fired power plants unless we can offer them something comparable in price. Koningstein and Fork with the massive resources of Google behind them concluded it was impossible for renewables to replace Carbon. I expect the modular nuclear reactor will be available in 5-10 years that will fill the niche. Gloating over the demise of nuclear is in my opinion, foolish and wrong.

    1. Jan Veselý Avatar
      Jan Veselý

      Every nuclear power plant started to build is a waste of time and money. There are better low-to-no carbon pollution sources, less risky, quickly to be deployed and for half of the cost.
      That Google story is misinterp misinterpreted by you. Google invested their money in cleantech, out of their expertise. And they have chosen CSP and offshore wind – who both are losing to PV and onshore wind. They didn’t lost their money, they just didn’t have those IT money explosions they are used to.
      ANd BTW. Google comps and servers run on green electricity.

      1. Billy Bangle Avatar
        Billy Bangle

        I don’t agree. You can Google “costs + nuclear”, and your hits are dominated by anti-nuclear websites all saying nuclear is too expensive. There are some pro-nuclear websites. And a smattering of probably independent webites associated with universities and government agencies. Brookings, MIT, prestigious universities. ALL of the independent reports give costs for nuclear that are at least competitive. If you then look at peer-reviewed papers, same thing, all independent sources show nuclear is either competitive or cheaper.

        My conclusion is that the “high cost of nuclear” is a delusion passed around anti-nuclear websites with no basis in fact.

        Denialist groups are everywhere. Whether it’s creationist, flat-earthers, or the anti-vax crackpots. They have their conspiracy theories, their fake experts and their cherry-picking of data.

        Unfortunately, robust action against climate change, is presently squeezed between two such groups, the Climate Change deniers on the right, and the anti-nuclear movement on the left. Both are absolutely classic denialist movements.

        Lord Monckton says “climate change is a hoax perpetrated by a leftwing conspiracy coordinated by the United Nations.”

        Helen Caldicott says ““The World Health
        Organization is now part of the conspiracy and the cover-up, the biggest
        medical conspiracy and cover-up in the history of medicine.”

        Cindy Folkers says she’s “uncovered a deliberate conspiracy on the part
        of the government and nuclear industry to intentionally poison the public with
        radioactive food.”

        The Climate Change Deniers have their false experts like Ian Plimer, whose area of expertise is not climatology and the anti-nuclear people have Ian Lowe, who has worked in the industry for 40 years.

        The planet Earth needs us to defeat both sides.

        1. Jan Veselý Avatar
          Jan Veselý

          Reply 1 – climate change: You are overfocused on climate change. NPPs help to reduce CO2 production well but do not solve other major issues of thermal power plants – water consumption, fuel mining and processing, waste, decomissioning, safety, …
          These are real issues.

          1. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            I am 100% focused on climate change. I think it’s an emergency. Nuclear plants can be built in 3-4 years when people accept the emergency. There is a strong body of evidence that renewables are completely inadequate. Furthermore, modular nuclear plants will be available in 5-10 years to retrofit coal-fired power stations. The CO2 is a furphy. The IPCC insists on calling renewables/nuclear low-carbon rather than no-carbon because of carbon use in input. But at the end of decarbonisation, your Uranium or Silicon is dug up with a hydrogen truck and milled with no-carbon electricity, all of them will be exactly zero.

            Because nuclear uses substantially less gas back-up there is a strong case denuclearisation will be faster at reducing carbon. Nuclear is the safest form of energy

            nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html

            The waste is trivial, 95% in Uranium and other actinides that can be recycled, and the remaining radioactivity is = to the natural radiation in 1 km3 of soil for each tonne of waste. The radioactivity is trivial.

          2. Jan Veselý Avatar
            Jan Veselý

            OK, I’ll use Socrates on you. Let’s assume you are right – we are at emergency with CO2. Is it reasonable to solve an emergency situation by a tech which needs long building time (3-4 years is still too slow in emergency) or a tech which MAY be available in some prototype scale in next 5-10 years? While we have proven solution of upscaled, proven techs which can be deployed incredibly quickly? Not mentioning falling prices.

          3. Billey Bangle Avatar
            Billey Bangle

            Then that’s fine, renewables will quickly displace carbon and all will be hunky-dorey. I note your opinion, but I also note that of James Hansen, Koningsein & Fork, Barry Brook and others. I’ll wait & see.
            But it would be really good if you would challenge your OWN views. Try googling nuclear + cost site:edu
            Take up my challenge of finding a “nuclear is too expensive” report NOT obviously associated with an anti-nuclear group.
            Admit that for you to be correct then the UN must be involved in a conspiracy. Helen Caldicott certainly thinks so. Consider how much comfort it must be for climate-change-deniers to have people on the political left also support the idea that the UN does conspiracies.

        2. Jan Veselý Avatar
          Jan Veselý

          Reply 2 – climate solution: Let’s assume we have a country reliable on coal electricity, say Poland. So, nuclear is a solution, let’s build nukes. And here we start, you spend 5 years by siting, planning and permiting. During that time your decision makers will be under pressure from Russia, USA and France (and maybe China) to choose their design. After that you start to build. If you are extremely lucky you will build a plant for 5 years. No luck scenario is 10 years, bad luck scenario may be you just sink money (Slovakians are now finishing 2x500MW nuclear reactors after 30 years of construction). Meanwhile you are still burning millions of tons of coal.
          OTOH: If you decide to solve this problem by wind or solar energy. Your government just announce its target, permiting and financing scheme. Next day comes guys from Vestas, GE, Hanergy, Sun Edison, … and offers an investment in your country to build a factories to produce windmills/PV panels. And investors start to build (and finish) new electricity sources literarilly by day one.

        3. Jan Veselý Avatar
          Jan Veselý

          Reply 3 – money talks: If a nuclear energy would be such a great deal than investors should not have problems to finance project. In fact, without huge governmental guarantees, they would not get a dime. And when they start to build they can expect their credit rating downgrade.
          OTOH: Solar or wind companies have no problem to get money from “Wall street”. And they now usually recieve better conditions (lower interest rates) than energy utilities.
          Don’t need to talk about ratio of investment money governments:financiat markets.

          1. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            If solar were such a good deal, why did the ACT government had to pay a price of about £92.5/MWh for the Royalla Sun Farm?
            http://www.cmd.act.gov.au/open_government/inform/act_government_media_releases/corbell/2013/work-to-start-on-royalla-solar-farm

            But I actually think the market should decide. We should have a carbon tax, announce Carbon must be zero by 2040, and set-up a regulatory regime that supports it.

            I note that demand from investors for the recent CGN Meiya (nuclear) power holdings was 500 times oversubscribed.
            http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/43bb1be8-4a45-11e4-b8bc-00144feab7de.html#axzz3Qqreufl2
            http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/cgn-power-plans-us3-billion-hk-ipo-in-november/story-e6frg90f-1227104141451

          2. Giles Avatar

            The ACT government was for a fixed price- it doesn’t change over 20 years. in 2035 it will still be at that price while Hinkley will be double. It was also for the very first solar plant in Australia’s national electricity market, so there was no local supply chain established, and bankers applied high level of risk because it was a first. The US, with established supply chain and financing, has solar plants at less than half the price. In Gulf countries, it is even cheaper.

          3. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            It doesn’t change at all, or it’s indexed like Hinkley point?

          4. Giles Avatar

            It is a fixed price, it doesn’t change at all, it is not indexed like Hinkley Point. New 200MW of wind energy auctioned in ACT have just gone at $A81-$A92. That is what they will be getting in 2037, when Hinkley is about three times that much and growing.

          5. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            You have said on reneweconomy that the price is fixed, the ACT government doesn’t mention it
            http://www.cmd.act.gov.au/open_government/inform/act_government_media_releases/corbell/2013/work-to-start-on-royalla-solar-farm

            The inflation adjustment in the UK is presently 1.0195. At that rate it will take 36 years for the price to double.

          6. Giles Avatar

            You are thoroughly tiresome. It is well known that the ACT auction if fixed. If you bothered to look further than one press release you would have found.

            http://www.elementusenergy.com.au/Elementus_Energy/OneSun_Capital.html

            Or this one from the government:

            http://www.environment.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/581601/Large_Solar_for_Canberra.pdfwith this phrase:

            “Importantly the FiT rate is xed over 20 years, so it
            declines in real terms and as wholesale energy prices rise over time”

            And you can find the contract documents too.

            As for Hinkley, so, now you have picked the lowest inflation rate and tried to pretend it will stay there for 35 years, despite all historic evidence.

            It is typical of the nuclear fanatics who refuse to see the evidence in front of them about costs.

            Really, I don’t have time to deal with this utter nonsense. Please go back to your nuclear fan club web sites.

          7. Giles Avatar

            Another point on inflation. One of the reasons it at record lows is because of falling energy prices, partly the result of impact of renewables. You can bet if consumers have to pay for Hinkley and the higher energy prices, then inflation will be back.

          8. Billey Bangle Avatar
            Billey Bangle

            I’m tired too, and tired of your bullshit. I’m doing this because I’m hoping more and more of the middle ground will see that the anti-nuclear movement and the climate-change deniers are using exactly the same modus operandi, create doubt, allege that the UN agencies are involved in a conspiracy and engage in Ad Hominen attacks against those you.

            About nuclear costs, the answer is very clear. ALL of the “nuclear is too costly” stuff comes from anti-nuclear websites. I spent 3 hours on Google one day. I challenged myself to find a “nuclear is too costly” report from an independent source. I could not find one. You, Jan V, and others live in quite a small world, where you get all your information from anti-nuclear websites. They all say “nuclear is too costly”.

            It would be my suggestion to you and anyone else reading this to challenge your own views. Try Google “nuclear costs site:edu” Most of the hits are universities, see what they say.

            Read both sides on all the issues, for example, baseload electricity
            https://reneweconomy.wpengine.com/2013/another-myth-busted-on-the-road-to-100-renewable-electricity-52178
            http://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

            Get out of the anti-nuclear village into the real world. Give people all the information, let them decide.

            It is my hypothesis that the entire internet contains not a single “nuclear is too costly” from an independent source. I challenge you Giles, Jan V, to find one

          9. Giles Avatar

            Oops, my mistake. In 2035, the price for Hinkley output will not be double that of wind in the ACT – it will be FOUR times as much (forget the currency conversion).

          10. Ronald Brakels Avatar
            Ronald Brakels

            If solar is such a good idea why did the last sysem I have installed cost $2.10 a watt without subsidy? Oh wait, it was because it was a good deal. Using the home loan rate as the discount rate it produces electricity at under 10 cents a kilowatt-hour. Currently the average cost of solar in Australia, without subsidy, is about $2.50 a watt. Right now it outcompetes any form of grid generation and will decline further in price.

          11. Roland Riese Avatar
            Roland Riese

            The Australian Labor solar scheme is government assisted steeling from from poor Australians that now have to pay for uneconomic baseload power and for the next 20 years the solar rebate. Solar and wind are just useless energy forms and only benefit the big electrical corporation, the banks and well of Australians.

    2. Broncobet Avatar
      Broncobet

      By paying for so called “renewables” that is just what you’ll get; electricity only available rarely, if you close the nuclear plants you will increase CO2 with natural gas plants. Even 100% renewables would not be nearly enough to stop climate change, advanced nuclear is needed for transport(H2), refining, metal,glass,and cement industries. By paying for these renewables you are making the atmosphere worse not better. Impose a Carbon tax. But I promise the words “Carbon tax” will never be uttered by this poor leader.

      1. Ronald Brakels Avatar
        Ronald Brakels

        The minimum cost of electricity from the proposed Hinkley C nuclear plant is about 20 cents a kilowatt-hour. The cost of electricity from South Australia’s newest wind farm with a 10% discount rate and an annual 2% of the capital cost for operations and maintenance is about 5.7 cents a kilowatt-hour. The average cost to an Australian household for electricity from rooftop solar with a discount rate equal to the home loan rate is about 9 cents a kilowatt-hour or 12 cents without RECs. Note that rooftop solar competes with the retail price of electricity, not the wholesale price and so out competes any form of utility scale generation.

        1. Billy Bangle Avatar
          Billy Bangle

          As I recall it, the “Strike Price” guaranteed was £92.5/MWh for Hinkley Point. The UK guarantees a strike price for all low-carbon energy sources. On-shore wind gets £95/MWh, off-shore wind £155/MWh and large-scale solar £120MWh.

          https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/263937/Final_Document_-_Investing_in_renewable_technologies_-_CfD_contract_terms_and_strike_prices_UPDATED_6_DEC.pdf

          If it were as clear cut as you say, Hinkley Point wouldn’t be happening. One of the reasons is that wind is unpredictable; you have to count MWh generated and not capacity in your costs, and you have to acknowledge that a constant source of electricity will be able to demand a premium price when the wind isn’t blowing. The price is only comparable is you have the same dispatchability. The cost of storage needs to be added to make the two comparable. At the moment it’s too expensive. You can hypothesise that the cost of storage will go down; I think the that the modular nuclear reactor will produce electricity at half the cost from any other source. See ted.com/talks/taylor_wilson_my_radical_plan_for_small_nuclear_fission_reactors

          http://www.technologyreview.com/news/512321/safer-nuclear-power-at-half-the-price/
          The research and development is being carried out at MIT, the top university in the world.

          http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/so-why-is-mit-number-one-in-the-world-university-rankings-8806894.html

          1. Giles Avatar

            Billy Bangle, why don’t you read the document that you are quoting. The strike price of all renewables fall in coming years. Some of them quite dramatically. That’s because renewable energy costs are coming down.

            The Hinkley strike price, on the other hand, increases each year, so by 2058 it will be €329 per MWh.

            And on top of that the UK government has contracted to pay that price for all the output, even when not needed – and that price is struck even after the government provides €16 billion in loan guarantees to companies owned by French and Chinese governments (!?!?!?!), and lobs €12 billion of fees on to consumers to meet National Grid requirements for extra back up can be built in case something goes wrong. What a great deal!

          2. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            So Giles, you’re saying that nuclear got a completely different deal to the other non-carbon energies. I don’t believe it!! Can you find me a reference.

          3. Giles Avatar

            Yes, the document you linked to. And all the public announcements about the Hinkley deal, the EU review and the corporate announcements.

          4. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            The document I quoted does not mention Hinkley B. it gives a strike price which is flat in 2012 £, declining for some modalities. It specifically says 2012 prices. Put bluntly, I think it’s highly implausible that the UK government that would allow nuclear to escalate to £329/MWh whilst level other low-carbon as ~£100/MWh. I think it’s much more likely that one figure has been adjusted for inflation and the other hasn’t. That’s why I asked you for a reference.

          5. Giles Avatar

            Oh, for goodness sake, can’t you use google? Here, it took me 5 seconds, googled Hinkley contact, and it’s on world nuclear news, they not very anti nuclear. http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP-Hinkley-Point-C-contract-terms-08101401.html

          6. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            I’ve used Google and I couldn’t find a direct comparison. There is no reference to the €329 except on 2 or 3 anti-nuclear websites. I think it’s a baseless claim.

          7. Giles Avatar

            Baseless? Are nuclear supporters really that mathematically illiterate?

            The contract says quite clearly that the strike price is adjusted each year for inflation. Google UK average inflation rate. Let’s be kind and give it an average of 2.5%. Calculate that over 35 years. Remember, it’s a compound rate. You should find yourself well above €300.

          8. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            Anti-nuclear people are that innumerate. Otherwise they could work out for themselves that at ~520EBq, the total release from Fukushima was a tiny 1/30000th of the natural radiation in the ocean. ~16000000 EBq

            But Giles, you have made a very specific claim, you have said that nuclear received a vastly better deal than renewables because, the price increases over time escalates to €300, whilst renewables remain at ~£100. It is this specific claim I am challenging and asking you for evidence.

          9. Giles Avatar

            So, if your numbers are right, then why does the present Japan government – pro nuclear – not allow the Fukushima residents to return?
            As for the renewables CfD, read the contract yourself. It makes clear that this is a maximum price for renewables and the actual price will be set by competitive bids. Each year, the maximum price falls. There are no loan guarantees, no production guarantees, no insurance guarantees that are afforded nuclear.

          10. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            Now is the time to acknowledge Giles that you made it up about the Strike Price mechanism being different for renewables & nuclear.
            I think the Japanese government is stupid if they won’t let people go home. In the future if I’m living under such circumstances, I would refuse to leave, and encourage others to do the same. People should actually have informed consent. They should be told that the radiation dose is x msv/day, in 7 days we think it’ll be y msv/week. Lots of people think you should leave, lots of others think it isn’t necessary. Here’s Helen Caldicott’s opinion, here’s Wade Allisons, here’s how much radioactivity everyone gets in Ramsar & Kerala, here’s the data on the radioactive building in Taiwan. You choose. The dislocation of people and the unknowns have caused far more harm than the radioactivity ever could have. People should be empowered, they should be given all the information and allowed to decide for themselves.

          11. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            I’m tired too, and tired of your bullshit. I’m doing this because I’m hoping more and more of the middle ground will see that the anti-nuclear movement and the climate-change deniers are using exactly the same modus operandi, create doubt, allege that the UN agencies are involved in a conspiracy and engage in Ad Hominen attacks against those you.

            About nuclear costs, the answer is very clear. ALL of the “nuclear is too costly” stuff comes from anti-nuclear websites. I spent 3 hours on Google one day. I challenged myself to find a “nuclear is too costly” report from an independent source. I could not find one. You, Jan V, and others live in quite a small world, where you get all your information from anti-nuclear websites. They all say “nuclear is too costly”.

            It would be my suggestion to you and anyone else reading this to challenge your own views. Try Google “nuclear costs site:edu” Most of the hits are universities, see what they say.

            Read both sides on all the issues, for example, baseload electricity
            https://reneweconomy.wpengine.com/2013/another-myth-busted-on-the-road-to-100-renewable-electricity-52178
            http://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

            Get out of the anti-nuclear village into the real world. Give people all the information, let them decide.

            It is my hypothesis that the entire internet contains not a single “nuclear is too costly” from an independent source. I challenge you Giles, Jan V, to find one

          12. Giles Avatar

            The bullshit comes from nuclear boosters like yourself who pretend that nuclear is not expensive. Yes, all the pro-nuclear sites like the Breakthrough Institute like to pretend that it is not, that it is something like $100/MWh or even cheaper, when the Hinkley contract self evidently proves it is twice that price. Meanwhile, solar without subsidies is built at less than $60/MWh in the Gulf and wind at $40/MWh in US and South America. And these costs will continue to fall.
            As for the Decarbonise stuff on “myth of base load”, i would take the studies of the AEMO and DoE more seriously than the ill-informed prognostications of a pro-nuclear Adelaide student. I mean, really.

          13. Billey Bangle Avatar
            Billey Bangle

            OK Giles, let’s finish this. But I would encourage everyone to challenge their OWN beliefs. The easiest person to fool is yourself.
            I remain of the opinion that their is not a single “nuclear is too expensive to consider” site on the net which is NOT associated with an anti-nuclear group.

          14. Ronald Brakels Avatar
            Ronald Brakels

            Billy, it is clear cut. The strike price for Hinkley C is now about 98 pounds a megawatt-hour thanks to the built in increase. (Feel free to look up the precise figure.) At current exchange rates that is about 20 cents a kilowatt-hour. In Australia the average wholesale electricity price is about 3 cents a kilowatt-hour. So the wholesale price of electricity from Hinkley C is about 7 times more expensive than the average wholesale price in Australia.

            We can right purchase rooftop solar right now that provides electricity at a lower cost than any utility scale form of grid generation, which means no form of grid electricity can compete with it. That is why it’s so popular here. For the past 5 hours rooftop solar has provided 20% or more of total electricity use here in South Australia.

            I’ll point out you don’t seem to understand that nuclear power is not dispatchable. Because it is a high capital cost, low fuel cost source of electricity it is used in baseload mode. Attempting to operate a nuclear plant as a load following or peak generator massively increases the cost of the electricity it produces. If you only run a nuclear reactor half the time to meet peak demand then you almost double the cost of electricity from it. So we’d be looking at somewhere around 14 times the current average wholesale price of electricity in Australia instead of 7 times.

            And finally, you may think that modular nuclear reactors will be cheaper than current large ones, but if you look at the actual designs that have been proposed you will see they have a higher estimated cost per kilowatt of capacity than current large reactor designs.

            No wait, this is my final point – we are not faced with a false choice between nuclear power and reliably being able to keep the lights on. And suggesting we are faced with that choice is laughable to anyone who understands the basics of nuclear plant operations and cost. And for people who do understand the basics to suggest such a thing is dishonest.

          15. Billy Bangle Avatar
            Billy Bangle

            I take your point about dispatchable power; i was not clear. What I should have said was “You are not comparing apples with apples” If I have a solar or wind plant, I will inevitably sell it for less than if I have a coal or nuclear plant. Just quoting the cost is cherry-picking. On May 11 in Germany last year, it was a record day, wind and solar were going gangbusters and all electricity was sold at a loss. On another day electricity prices were very high, because both solar and wind were running at 3%. The point is, my coal or nuclear plant will be able to sell at both the highs and lows, a disproportionate amount of wind or solar will sell at the lows. Even if your comparison is true, you are not comparing apples with apples.

            Nonetheless, dispatchable nuclear power plants will arrive. A large nuclear reactor dedicated to the electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen, can be used as such, using 100% for hydrogen when demand is low and dispatching 10, 50 or 90% as electricity to the grid when necessary.

          16. Ronald Brakels Avatar
            Ronald Brakels

            Let me get this right, Billy: You are saying that in a scenario where it is no longer profitable for companies to add any more wind capacity, yet demand for electricity is still high enough to make other forms of generation profitable – therefore nuclear? That does not follow. It is a non-sequitur as they say in French. (They use Latin in France.) Why would they go straight to the most expensive form of electricity generation currently in use when there are so many cheaper options? Especially in a grid with lots of wind power which decreases the average wholesale price of electricity.

            The simple fact is, we will never build a nuclear power plant in Australia, either of current design or ones that are on drawing boards, because they simply cannot pay for themselves. And if the idea is to use them to fill in gaps left by much cheaper than nuclear wind power, cheaper than any utility scale generation point of use solar, and existing hydroelectric and pumped hydro storage, then the economics of nuclear go from impossible to ludicrous.

          17. Broncobet Avatar
            Broncobet

            Yes Billy, we absolutely love Transatomic they are so cute and the reactor is just the kind we love, but that won’t be for sale for many years if ever in the US as our NRC is a Kafkaesque warren of foolish regulations. You should poach them from us as your regulations are wiser and easier than ours. Also Terrestrial Energy from Canada with oil sands money and Canadian regulations very intelligent,safety based , instead of rule based in the US. Finally the best is ThorCom also from MIT uses shipbuilding techniques and very conservative assumptions, they need a host country as they won’t even consider the US. UK would be perfect and the product will sell in the trillions but my bet is India will make a deal.

        2. Broncobet Avatar
          Broncobet

          Yes it sounds crazy but it’s a European thing, they want to buy from their neighbor,France, which is the world champion of nuclear energy. It sounds like a lot but I’m sure you’d rather get your juice from the nuclear plant than that solar cell,because then you can have it whenever you want it,if you’ll wait for the electrons to come running out after the sun shines on them then of course we’ll sell them to you for next to nothing,pretty much what they are worth.

          1. Ronald Brakels Avatar
            Ronald Brakels

            Broncobet, to get electricity from only nuclear power whenever I want it would require nuclear capacity more than four times greater than our baseload consumption here in South Australia. At Hinkley C costs that would make the average wholesale price of electricity about 80 cents a kilowatt-hour or very roughly about 26 times what it is now. So no, I don’t think I would prefer to get my electricity whenever I want it from nuclear power.

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